To save me playing Sherlock Holmes, can anyone tell me where the crankcase breather pipe exits from the engine / pipework?

I'm looking into fitting a nice shiny oil catch tank (look out for possible Group buy )

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220bhp@wheels@1bar
GTI-R Hybrid - TI Intake - Lightened Fly - Uprated clutch - Pace FMIC - Pace Rad - Bailey DV26 - Apexi AVC-R - Eibach Springs - Bilstein shocks - 225/45/16 'Plus' Alloys - EBC Discs + Pads - Lots of Rings

Taz
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Reged: 16/10/2000
Posts: 2744
Loc: Kent coast......bootleggers pa...

there are primarily 2, one that is "just" before the inlet to the turbo ( which is a 1" ID hose ) & the other is a small ( 15mm ID ) hose attached to the back of the plenum chamber....

not forgetting the crankcase breather hose to the rocker cover

......so, what "you" want, is to remove the inlet hose to the "turbo" & fit a crankcase breather filter there

I have done this mod for the last 5 yrs, no probs & NO MOT fail......

lets face it, most MOT'rs are idiots

All you have to do is give it a quick wash in WD40 every 6 months or so

no......i did have some pics, but do a search fergie....

dead easy mod....

but your coop will still breathe oil vaoupr on over-run....

but IT WILL NOT clag up your turbo boost circuit with shite

even after 4yrs + my intercooler is still oilfree

Taz

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More underbonnet "bling" than a blinging bling thing & an unhealthy appetite for seagull burgers

GrahamL
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Reged: 08/09/2000
Posts: 2854
Loc: Pothole city - Glasgow

Fergie - i've been thinking about this too, not sure whether to just fit the oil breather filter as Taz has done or fit a complete oil catch tank and bypass the existing fiat system all together.

Crankcase breather system works like this:



Crankcase gasses exit from the cam cover (1) through a flame trap (2) and travel down to the separator tank on the back of the engine. From there oil droplets exit back to the sump via pipe (5) and oil vapour laden gas is sucked down to the turbo inlet on boost via pipe (4) and directly into the plenum chamber at idle via pipe (8). The valve (7) only opens during idle conditions (vacuum in plenum).

I've no idea how much oil it actually transfers back into the sump via pipe 5, but if it's a fair bit then obviously we'd want to retain that feature, so i'm not sure if bypassing the entire system with an oil catch tank is really the best idea.

Ideally we don't want any oil vapour going into either the intake or plenum, so would it be OK to fit the oil vapour filter onto pipe (4) as Taz has done and also disconnect pipe (8)?

The valve (7) will be permanently closed then so the only exit will be via the breather filter we've attached to pipe (4). Obviously we'd also have to block the intake into the plenum where pipe (8) was connected as well.

Taz, is there any reason you didn't disconnect pipe (8) as well as fitting the filter to pipe (4) ?

paul s
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Reged: 26/10/2000
Posts: 3156
Loc: Glasgow

U should be in bed !!

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GrahamL
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Reged: 08/09/2000
Posts: 2854
Loc: Pothole city - Glasgow

GrahamL
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Reged: 08/09/2000
Posts: 2854
Loc: Pothole city - Glasgow

Next question... is the pressure from the crankcase expelling the gasses enough to force the vapours along to the filter or catch tank?

The way Fiat have it connect there should always be a vacuum sucking the vapours out of the separator tank, either from pipe (4) when on boost or from pipe (8) at idle.

So do we need to actively suck the vapours out of the separator or would crankcase pressure be enough to force them out and along the pipe to our filter?

Fergie
i AM a coop


Reged: 18/04/2004
Posts: 1235
Loc: Glasgow

I spoke to marc at the Garage about this. I've got my catch tank and my plan is to make up a new hose to replace the one that goes from (2) to (6) as I'm gonna keep the orginal incase it goes wrong! The catch tank will then be fitted inline.

The catch tank has an inlet, an outlet and also a filter on top to let the gases escape. Its also got a gauge on the side so I can monitor how much oil is in it.

This way I'm not interfering with the way the car is supposed to run, but keeping all the crap out of the boost pipes, engine and engine bay.

I probably won't fit it though until I've sourced a decent blue pipe to match the car and the airbox is off the car hehe.

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220bhp@wheels@1bar
GTI-R Hybrid - TI Intake - Lightened Fly - Uprated clutch - Pace FMIC - Pace Rad - Bailey DV26 - Apexi AVC-R - Eibach Springs - Bilstein shocks - 225/45/16 'Plus' Alloys - EBC Discs + Pads - Lots of Rings

GrahamL
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Reged: 08/09/2000
Posts: 2854
Loc: Pothole city - Glasgow

Yeah i thought about doing it that way... but there's a couple of potential problems. If the catch tank/filter doesn't remove all the oil vapour then some will still be going through into the engine and intake pipes as before. And you won't be draining the "caught" oil back into the sump so may have to top up a bit more.

Obviously you'd have to run it with the catch tank installed like that for a while to see just how much oil you were getting in it.

Which catch tank were you thinking of?

I'd found this one which I thought looked OK and was small enough to (maybe) squeeze in beside the chargecooler header tank up on the bulkhead, it has the sightglass for oil level but no vapour filter for the gas to escape through.

Fergie
i AM a coop


Reged: 18/04/2004
Posts: 1235
Loc: Glasgow

I've already got one m8.

Its about the size of a coke can, maybe fractionally bigger. I've just got to sort the pipe work for it.

I was planning to mount it where the airbox currently is or the other option would be on the bulkhead. I don't see any harm in monitoring it for a month or two as an experiment.

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220bhp@wheels@1bar
GTI-R Hybrid - TI Intake - Lightened Fly - Uprated clutch - Pace FMIC - Pace Rad - Bailey DV26 - Apexi AVC-R - Eibach Springs - Bilstein shocks - 225/45/16 'Plus' Alloys - EBC Discs + Pads - Lots of Rings

MicahGTi
i AM a coop


Reged: 13/03/2004
Posts: 1467
Loc: Sandwich, Kent

Hey guys, seeing as you're talking about oil pipes, i need to fit a crankcase breather filter, but have no idea where it goes!
Can you point it out for me on that handy pic GrahamL put up, please?
Will i need to blank anything off either?

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Micah

Sard BOV * K&N 57i * Milltek System * Eibach's *
242.9 bhp * 223.7 lb/ft... until i fitted a Novitec without a boost controller

Fergie
i AM a coop


Reged: 18/04/2004
Posts: 1235
Loc: Glasgow

Hi m8,

You could just fit it to the end of pipe 4 that connects to the air intake pipe. Then its just a case of blanking off the hole.

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220bhp@wheels@1bar
GTI-R Hybrid - TI Intake - Lightened Fly - Uprated clutch - Pace FMIC - Pace Rad - Bailey DV26 - Apexi AVC-R - Eibach Springs - Bilstein shocks - 225/45/16 'Plus' Alloys - EBC Discs + Pads - Lots of Rings

GrahamL
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Reged: 08/09/2000
Posts: 2854
Loc: Pothole city - Glasgow

I've ordered a filter now but not sure how to modify the existing system to connect it up. First impression is that it should just go on the end of pipe 4, but that potentially creates a problem in that at idle the engine will create a vacuum in the intake manifold which opens valve 7 and means the engine could just suck in air from the filter on the end of pipe 4, through the oil separator and into the intake... so it'll be using some un-metered air and running lean. No idea how much it would suck through the separator, but it could be a problem.

So do we just remove pipe 8 as well and block it up (obviously on the manifold side as well)... but then that raises the question of whether the crankcase pressure itself will be enough to expel the gasses along to the filter at the end of pipe 4.

Fergie
i AM a coop


Reged: 18/04/2004
Posts: 1235
Loc: Glasgow

I don't see removing 4 and putting a filter at the end as a problem, as long as you block up the hole on the air intake. Whether connected to the intake or to a filter, it would still be breathing air...

Valve 7 is also a one way valve, so I don't see how the system could work wrongly?

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220bhp@wheels@1bar
GTI-R Hybrid - TI Intake - Lightened Fly - Uprated clutch - Pace FMIC - Pace Rad - Bailey DV26 - Apexi AVC-R - Eibach Springs - Bilstein shocks - 225/45/16 'Plus' Alloys - EBC Discs + Pads - Lots of Rings

GrahamL
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Reged: 08/09/2000
Posts: 2854
Loc: Pothole city - Glasgow

The valve (7) is open at idle but closed under boost, so at idle it opens and the engine sucks air in from the oil separator tank. If we've disconnected pipe 4 and fitted the filter to the end of it, then it effectively has a leak on the intake manifold 'cause it'll be sucking in unmetered (ie. air that's not been measured by the airflow meter) air through the filter via the separator tank. With the pipe attached it's not a problem 'cause it's only sucking in air which would go up through the throttle anyways and it's already been metered.

I've no idea how much unmetered air it would suck in so it may not be a problem at all, but potentially it could make the engine run lean at idle.

You'd have a properly "closed" system if you also removed pipe 8 from the intake manifold as well as fitting the filter to pipe 4, so I think that's how i'm gonna try it.

PeterH
reaping the fruits


Reged: 23/03/2001
Posts: 483
Loc: Preston Lancashire England

The size of the hole in the fitting that pipe 8 goes to in the manifold I do not think it is going to make much difference to the mixture. If you remove the pipe you would be able to fit a needle or pin in the hole it is that small.
I put a K&N filter at the end of pipe 4 and put a Forge blanking plug in the hole where it us to go. I did not see any difference in tick over etc it just seems normal I did this mod about 2 years ago without problems.

GrahamL
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Reged: 08/09/2000
Posts: 2854
Loc: Pothole city - Glasgow

Interesting, thanks Peter.

I've removed the pipes and fitted the filter to the end of pipe 4 now. Also unscrewed the inlet to the manifold for pipe 8 and sure enough the actual hole in it is tiny, but the little adapter bit I removed was very oily, so I've removed that pipe as well and will block up both sides to stop any oil vapour getting into the engine at all.

How often do you find you have to clean the filter BTW, or is it still fine after 2 years?

johns
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Reged: 07/02/2001
Posts: 3218
Loc: Manchester

I've just got a filter at the end of pipe 4. It does chuck stuff out on boost as you can occasionally smell it in the cabin Not sure that the place where I have the filter is the best - might be better to have it directly off where pipe 4 connects to the seperator tank


I'm guessing that if you run high boost then you may experience a problem with the standard system. If the intake is positively charged due to the volume of air going intot he engine then it might stop it being able to breath ? Anyone have any ideas whether this is the case?

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GrahamL
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Reged: 08/09/2000
Posts: 2854
Loc: Pothole city - Glasgow

A fair point about the position of the filter, it's definitely not ideal just putting it on the end of pipe 4, but that's where i've put mine as well 'cause it looks like a bit of a nightmare to move it elsewhere without seriously stripping down other bits of the engine to gain access.

I don't think running higher boost will be a problem with the standard system, 'cause the way it works it's always actively "sucking" air out of the separator tank, either into the turbo intake when on boost or directly into the intake manifold at idle or gear changes.

GrahamL
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Reged: 08/09/2000
Posts: 2854
Loc: Pothole city - Glasgow

A few customary pics...

I made up a little bracket to support the breather filter, from one of those mecanno type metal strips Halfords sell for mounting your hifi headunit. So the filter sits clear of the intake pipes below and the coolant pipe above.



And there's even a spare threaded bolt hole on the edge of the coolant rail on front of the block, here, all ready for the bracket:

PeterH
reaping the fruits


Reged: 23/03/2001
Posts: 483
Loc: Preston Lancashire England

I have never cleaned the filter it still looks fine after 2 years. I never get any smell of oil vapour from my filter under the bonnet or in the car